tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post6804646499927408344..comments2023-10-30T22:11:21.083-10:00Comments on Lyme Disease, Science, And Society: Camp Other: Paper: Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in Rhesus Macaques following Antibiotic Treatment of Disseminated InfectionCamp Otherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10224408965529778101noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-71811954263061704312012-01-19T13:26:43.206-10:002012-01-19T13:26:43.206-10:00Let's just face the simple fact.
Lyme bacteri...Let's just face the simple fact.<br /><br />Lyme bacteria is a lot more complex that ALL of the best experts and science can understand.<br /><br />Theory's are just that and patient experiences are not just subjective. After a well documented case of Lyme my wife developed two autoimmune diseases. <br /><br />The bottom line is all camps need to pull their heads out and develop more research and science to understand this highly complex - well traveled, easy to get bacteria.<br /><br />Then who ever discovers the real facts beginning to end should speak. The rest of the pundits should produce or bag the noise. <br /><br />In fact let's see if the IDSA docs can solve this problem - or do they just want to promote an agenda, not a solution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-38211756868734568632012-01-19T11:47:08.300-10:002012-01-19T11:47:08.300-10:00Note to readers:
This is really nagging on me:
&...Note to readers:<br /><br />This is really nagging on me:<br /><br /><b>"Transcription of a lp28-1 gene (bbf26) was verified in organ tissue from both untreated animals and one treated animal (Figure 6D)"</b><br /><br />That plasmid confers infectivity and is supposed to be responsible for antigenic variation. I'd have to look up bbf26 to see its specific relevance, but there is evidence that if that plasmid is lost or damaged that mice can clear the Borrelia infection more easily. It loses its virulence. <br /><br />If transcription of an lp-28 gene occurs, this opens the door to a lot more questions that need answering. So far, a sample size of one animal is very small. Other people are going to point this out. One is all you need to provide evidence that yes, Bb plasmid gene transcription can occur even AFTER high dose antibiotic treatment. But the more examples of this which can be found, the stronger one's argument is for investigating it and potentially supporting the persistent infection model.<br /><br />Numbers matter. So does method. Barthold is meticulous and exacting, as someone else has stated on this blog earlier. But he will be expected to produce confirmation of his results and other reseachers will want to see more treated animals that result in this finding.Camp Otherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10224408965529778101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-71416946235512881782012-01-18T13:00:17.131-10:002012-01-18T13:00:17.131-10:00Michael,
Welcome to Camp Other blog.
I don't...Michael,<br /><br />Welcome to Camp Other blog.<br /><br />I don't think there is any dispute that Borrelia spirochetes have been found after antibiotic exposure in both in vitro and in vivo studies. There are quite a number of these studies cited on this blog which I call to the reader's attention. So on this count, yes, there is plenty of evidence spirochetes are found after antibiotic treatment. But the issue for many researchers has been whether or not these remaining spirochetes were metabolically active or alive - as well as whether or not they could reproduce and be pathogenic. They want to satisfy not only Koch's original postulates but Koch's Molecular postulates as well. If the studies you cite have evidence to support Koch's Molecular postulates, it would be good to review them in full text.Camp Otherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10224408965529778101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-40376052647740125772012-01-18T09:41:47.734-10:002012-01-18T09:41:47.734-10:00I've covered all these questions in a paper I ...I've covered all these questions in a paper I wrote titled: The Case For Chronic Infection: The Case For Chronic Infection: Evidential persistence of Borrelia species post antibiotic exposure in vivo and in vitro.<br /><br />All available studies on this specific topic are included in the paper, as well as bold print to emphasis crucial pieces of each study. <br /><br />The problem isn't a lack of evidence. There is an abundant array, over 1500 pages worth supporting Chronic Infection. I include only the abstracts. <br /><br />https://acrobat.com/app.html#d=sbb-EmpQrQTgrPoezLGregMichaelhttps://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=501853514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-88182102560599105012012-01-14T08:57:33.545-10:002012-01-14T08:57:33.545-10:00Joanne,
I agree that the evidence that spirochete...Joanne,<br /><br />I agree that the evidence that spirochetes can survive antibiotic treatment must be factored in to making decisions about patient treatment. I think you're absolutely right and saying health agencies do not know enough about this either way - that's been a long standing problem.<br /><br />Standard light microscopy has not been considered by microbiologists to be the most accurate for determining the specific spirochete with which one is infected (is it Treponema denticola, or another non-pathogenic Treponeme, or is it something harmful like Borrelia <i>burgdorferi</i>)? What one needs to do for identifying specific pathogenic bacteria is use fluorescently labeled antibodies to bind to antigens on the bacteria and examine them using a fluorescent microscope. (See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence_microscope" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence_microscope</a>)<br /><br />Thanks for sharing Pam Weintraub's comments on this paper. I think that the work Barthold has been doing over the years has been very important and it needed to be shared right away. I also think that additional research is needed and we need to find out how much of patients' symptoms are caused by the infection relative to the immune/inflammatory response and genetic factors of both the bacteria and the patient. "There are probably different paths to treatment" - I'd have to agree with this.Camp Otherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10224408965529778101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-83262673341262092282012-01-14T05:23:23.946-10:002012-01-14T05:23:23.946-10:00I don't think you get time to follow Facebook ...I don't think you get time to follow Facebook so I will share Pam Weintraub's comments <br />'of great importance to Lyme --the long-awaited persistence study out of Emory, in rhesus monkeys. This is the study that was commissioned to accompany the Klempner study on persistence in humans, by NIH. I have been waiting for these authors to buck the politics and publish for years.'<br />'it is still going to be very complex. I know that Barthold does feel these spirochetes cause cytokine and chemokine cascades --normally drivers of autoimmune disease. But if infection is the driver ...there are probably different paths to treatment.'<br /> 'Yup this is the big one'Joannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905137222286141548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-78209558596305969332012-01-14T05:20:06.511-10:002012-01-14T05:20:06.511-10:00I don't disagree with what you are saying Camp...I don't disagree with what you are saying Camp but we do now know that Lyme spirochetes can remain despite host immune system plus antibiotics clearance so it is a nonsense for our health agencies to continue to say that in disseminated cases that a couple of weeks antibiotics is all that is needed- they just do not know neither does anyone else.<br /><br />What I find interesting is that there were so few ticks feeding and yet they managed to pass on the spirochetes - does that not suggest that there must have been plenty circulating in the blood for it to be passed so easily? This is something many people have found in microscopy but this is frowned on by our health authorities as a way of detecting spirochetes.Joannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905137222286141548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-28489113024438829002012-01-13T10:31:45.851-10:002012-01-13T10:31:45.851-10:00Joanne,
Thanks for sharing news of this publicati...Joanne,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing news of this publication with others. I think it's an important paper to share, and important to read the full text and not just the abstract - though the abstract is definitely eye-catching.<br /><br />These particular passages in the research leapt out at me:<br /><br /><i>"A few spirochetes grew in cultures of organ tissues collected post-mortem from each animal after >9 weeks, but we were unable to subculture any spirochetes from either treated or untreated animals due to their slow growth. We therefore pelleted these cultures to confirm their identity and test their viability by DNA/RNA analysis. <b>Transcription was detected in culture pellets and the tissues of treated animals, indicating that the bacteria were metabolically active </b>(Figure 6C, D). Figure 6D shows ospA transcription detected directly in tissues harvested from treated and untreated animals. "</i><br /><br /><i>"At the molecular level, B. burgdorferi DNA would indicate the presence of organisms, live or dead. <b>The detection of RNA, however, should indicate that those present are metabolically active and thus alive. In Experiment 1, spirochetal DNA and RNA were detected in the tissues of a few animals, independent of treatment. </b> This may reflect a low spirochetal burden, lack of flaB transcription [37], and/or seclusion in untested tissues."</i><br /><br /><i>"Antibiotic tolerance has been demonstrated in vitro with several bacterial species, both gram negative (E. coli) and gram positive (Staphylococcus spp.). <b>The fact that organisms can persist in the presence of antibiotics such as penicillin and cephalosporins (ceftriaxone) that interfere with cell wall synthesis appears to stem from their ability to enter a dormant, non-dividing state</b> [43], [44], thus avoiding the need for cell wall synthesis to continue growth. The other antibiotic that was used in these experiments is doxycycline. <b>The tetracycline class of antibiotics corrupts translation at the ribosome; therefore, minimal gene expression from dormant organisms may be unaffected.</b> A “persister” phenotype may possibly be responsible for the recalcitrance of persisting spirochetes made evident by previous studies in mice and dogs [37], [42], [45], and by those presented in this report. Perhaps incomplete clearance of bacteria following antibiotic treatment is not a phenomenon unique to B. burgdorferi, but one that occurs with other bacterial infections as well. In this case, xenodiagnosis enables detection of otherwise inconspicuous live organisms through acquisition by the natural vector."</i><br /><br />So this is all notable.<br /><br />Two things have to happen next, I think:<br /><br />1) Discover how long these remaining spirochetes can remain dormant and if they reproduce, at what rate do they reproduce? <br /><br />2) Provide evidence that host symptoms are directly attributed to the presence of the spirochetes and the damage they do.<br /><br />I don't think we are quite at the stage where this paper definitely states that a chronic infection is driving patients' symptoms. This is a step closer to that, though.Camp Otherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10224408965529778101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4073397588746430486.post-42566982434726383982012-01-13T10:03:46.002-10:002012-01-13T10:03:46.002-10:00Wonderful news thanks for posting. reposted on Loo...Wonderful news thanks for posting. reposted on Looking at Lyme Disease Facebook and Twitter.<br /><br />As Gill aid on Eurolyme 'The Holy Grail'<br />I remember Ben Luft saying at IOM that Barthold would have some important research to share later in the proceedings about his Rhesus monkey work- Barthold never said a word and I was bitterly disappointed I thought he really sat on the fence. Perhaps he has been giving his 'chums' time to re group, or apply for their pensions LOL!Joannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12905137222286141548noreply@blogger.com